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Why local will never be removed

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 13:17:00 - [1] Originally by: small chimp I am so angry because every 0.0 elite pirate say that even highsec local should be removed. That would mean no dodixie local anymore :( Socializing is what Constellation chat is for. Imagine Dodixie's local, only spread across the entire constellation for a player group. It's a social buff, not a nerf. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 13:29:00 - [2] Originally by: Malcanis Um, some 0.0 dwellers would be delighted to have delayed local. Like me. If local were removed for 0.0, I'd move there and never leave. One of the largest problems with blobs is local. Being able to know the EXACT location and number of your enemy with 100% accuracy is why blobs are such a massive problem in Eve. If local didn't exist as it does now then I think you'd see more guerilla warfare and small unit tactics as those smaller forces will be able to hide from the larger ones more effectively. There would also be the possibility of splitting one large force into several smaller strike teams to attack multiple targets at once. The #1 problem with non-consensual PVP in Eve is the local channel. It needs to be changed. W-space works fine without it. If delayed local were applied to 0.0 it would scale just as easily. Sure, all the carebears would cry foul at first- new ways of thinking would have to evolve to adapt player tactics to the new environment but it would stabilize within a few weeks I'm sure. Watch this thread closely. Everyone who is against the idea is most certainly a carebear. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 15:25:00 - [3] Originally by: Biggi Raeubertochter Edited by: Biggi Raeubertochter on 06/08/2009 14:48:19 Edited by: Biggi Raeubertochter on 06/08/2009 14:45:28 /pile of crap Originally by: King Rothgar I agree and that's a good thing. Player skill should trump skill points. There are defenses, it's called warp core stabs or you know, actually putting guns on your ship. That works too. /end pile of crap Your Pile of Trash gets the golden award for the stupiest post of the day. As for the warpstabs: /facepalm If i wanted to fit warpstabs id attach them to a transporter which isnt ever supposed to get into any combat activities. You cant have warpstabs fitted AND do any reasonable combat activities at the same time (as in ratting or plexing or what), since one warpstab is not enough to safe you from an antiwarp effect. The fact is, if theyd remove local, the victim had no defense at all. Most people would be either ratting or doing plexes or whatever, and dont have the time and nerves to hit their scan button every 5 seconds. Where the griefers (and in this case its only the cowardly sissis who cant possibly stand a fair 1v1, who want local removed) have all the advantages on their side, they have enough time to get the proper ships, fit the proper setups, and/or get a buddy. all in all, for these cowards its a guaranteed kill without any risk. More so because the victim is only partially pvp fitted for the most parts, or not pvp fitted at all, if theyre running missions. So all those morons that are wanting a "I GANK" Button with zero risk: GROW SOME BALLS! all in all: just shut up you geeks, they will never remove Local from low sec or 0.0. And now you all can crawl back into your cellars where you belong. As per my earlier post- carebear detected. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 15:58:00 - [4] Here's a little mission running story that illustrates my point- A while back I decided that I wanted to do some high sec war stuff so I started running some missions in the Uphallant area. Everything was going just fine until gasp some dirty nasty pirates spied my ship on scan and decided they were going to do me in. So my buddy and I were sitting there, running a L4 mission (Blockade or something), he in a Drake and me in my Dominix. In warps two PVP fit Sleipnirs. Uh oh. Long story short- they died. Quickly. And they were faction fit. I think all told they lost about a billion ISK that fight between the two newly built Command Ships. Now, if I can do it, anyone can. The only difference between me and all the rest of the failures out there who can't seem to not be killed in missions is this: skill and competence. A few other factors also come into play: not being a greedy mission ***** and not being lazy. Having a friend along doesn't hurt either. I'm sick of hearing about how horrible it is for mission runners. That they can't mission in a PVP fit ship. My Dominix that I was running the mission with WAS PVP fit. Hence the two dead Sleipnirs. The majority (not all, but most) of the mission runners out there want ISK for free. They don't think they should have to take personal responsibility for defending themselves. And frankly, most of them are simply too stupid to do it with any degree of competence anyway. But is this a bad thing? Of course not. It's simply natural selection at work. The people who are resisting the removal of local are just trying to retain their safety blanket at all costs because they're too lazy to operate without it. Probably the only reason that could possibly justify keeping local chat is the social issue, and that's a non issue because of two things: 1, it's delayed mode, not removed. If you still want to talk, you can. 2, Constellation chat. If you want to run your mouth that bad, there's a WHOLE CONSTELLATION that you have access to your garbage drivel. Have at it. Slightly off topic- some dood in a Curse can flipped me while I was missioning in Dodixie a while back, thinking he'd get an easy kill on my Abaddon. One dead Curse later he found out that wasn't such a good idea. Honestly, I can't see how everyone has so many problems with 'pirates'. It's not that difficult. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 17:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Soporo Quote: Until Miners have to scan down belts that do not appear on the overview there must be local otherwise ALL favour lies with the attacker. So move all belts to exploration. I'm all for it. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 17:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Arte But...give sov-related ability to scan local through modules at POS's, such as an anchorable module that has to be manned to give intel. A POS gunner qualified person (same skill set) can open up the module interface, see who is in system (like local now) and report. If it isn't manned, the intel isn't there. I'd support session change restricted display of local in low-sec. Reasons being, in low-sec, there are navies so they may report entry and exit, just not as quick as in hi-sec. This might mean that there is a scaleable difference between low and hi-sec. Manning space gives intel but only by applying assets to it. Yes I'm probably a carebear Bellum, but I think there has to be some compromise between current functionality and the desire to make it more like WH space; initially at least. Thoughts on the module idea? Quite frankly I'm 100% against anything that allows an already heavily entrenched alliance to further protect itself from attacks as the game is horribly stagnate already, but I'll concede that there has to be a little reciprocity with respect to some sort of defensive intel tool. A manned POS module would be ok but it should have high fuel requirements, use some sort of isotope per use and have a fairly long cooldown between uses, say 10-20 minutes. Being able to take an exact snapshot of everyone's bodycount in local is an extremely powerful tool. It should be expensive to use. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 18:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Amitious Turkey Edited by: Amitious Turkey on 06/08/2009 18:26:25 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Soporo Quote: Until Miners have to scan down belts that do not appear on the overview there must be local otherwise ALL favour lies with the attacker. So move all belts to exploration. I'm all for it. I like it, but only if barges get an extra highslot and a bonus so they can fit a Core probe launcher. I used to love 0.0 because it seemed so big. Now I rarely go at all because I don't always have the "connections". I say let sov 4 systems have standard local (or even 1-2 jumps around that sov 4 system), everywhere else should be fair game. No, just make all belts probable with the on-board built in scanner. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.06 18:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Shadowsword tl,dr version: - carebear pirate: "WHAAAA, I can't roam freely in other's people empires, they are blobbing, NOT FAIR!" - random reader: "You're alone, they're ten camping that gate, why shouldn't they catch you?" - carebear pirate: "BECAUSE THEY'RE TEN! They blob! They're carebears!" Joke aside, here's the previsible consequence of just removing local: - Raomers have a field day. Because they know where the good ratting systems are, no local advantage them big time. - Ratters do a quick calculation, find out that grinding missions in empire bring decent money, without the chore of updating the scanner every 5 seconds. - 0.0 become mostly empty except in alliances peak times, pirates have the choice between wandering around without any prey in sight, or being chased by large gangs of bored pvpers. - High-sec become even more populated, null-sec even more empty. CCP doesn't want that. Translation: I'm a 0.0 carebear who's terrified of not having local to allow the use of my ratting bots. Fail more please. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Ben Derindar Originally by: King Rothgar Local is so powerful that guys in Pandemic Legion are using ratting bots in their own space so they can farm isk without even being at their computer. How do I know? Real players don't warp to a safe spot, cloak and stay there for an hour because of a neutral shuttle, bots do and I've tested it a few times. You have of course petitioned this, right? /Ben If he did he'd have to petition half of the 0.0 population... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 07:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal And still no good reason why killing off ALL activity in 0.0 is good for anyone. Removing local means: Noone ratting and noone mining. Noone doing that means people do lvl4's in high sec insted since you won't lose your expensive ships without any possibility to do anything. Why should 0.0 only be dangerous for the people living there and not the people attacking? Defenders usually have the advantage but not so much in a environment where they have no ability to do anything. Lol. Don't be so dramatic. Putting local into delayed mode won't 'kill off all activity'. It will only reduce the activities of stupid and inept players who can't seem to understand the value of team play and the ability to take an active part in their own protection. Other than that, it's a two way street. Attacks won't know the true strength of the defenders and vice versa. Fast hit and run attacks would be commonplace. Traps would be easier to enact, from both sides. What is to stop an alliance from running a mining op and having 20+ recons cloaked in the belt with them? With no local it's impossible for the attackers to know otherwise. Your post is a perfect example of all of the people who can't figure out how to make it work to their advantage and therefor don't want anything to change. In short: you fail. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 08:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal Lol. Don't be so dramatic. Putting local into delayed mode won't 'kill off all activity'. It will only reduce the activities of stupid and inept players who can't seem to understand the value of team play and the ability to take an active part in their own protection. Other than that, it's a two way street. Attacks won't know the true strength of the defenders and vice versa. Fast hit and run attacks would be commonplace. Traps would be easier to enact, from both sides. What is to stop an alliance from running a mining op and having 20+ recons cloaked in the belt with them? With no local it's impossible for the attackers to know otherwise. Your post is a perfect example of all of the people who can't figure out how to make it work to their advantage and therefor don't want anything to change. In short: you fail. Yup, I'm terrible at EvE and a carebear. Try to go to ratting or mining in 0.0 now and turn off your local. Whats to stop an alliance from having 20+ scouts to sit at gates protecting miners? Well, you do know that mining isn't exactly the most profitable or popular pasttime in eve? Protecting miners is even less profitable and popular. Risk/Reward would become even more heavily skewed that it would be impossible to motivate why it should be done. 20 people scouting for the mining op. How many miners would you need to make everyone get at least 20m/h. (lower than lvl4). Sure it is possible, but noone would do it. Easier to run lvl4's and reprocess the minerals from that. If you want no local how about we remove tackling and dps from cov ops cloaked ships and make hulks get into warp in 10 sec. Or even better remove all cov ops crap totally. The only one who is a failure is you for not understanding that it has to be a balance between risk and reward. Having all risk for no reward won't work very well. As the work required to mine ore in 0.0 increases (man hours required to produce the same product would increase due to the need to use scouts/guards) the cost of that product would increase to reflect the new costs of producing it. This isn't a problem. Cheaper ore available in Empire you say? Remove or reduce the resources in Empire to match. Remove all T1 loot from rats. Do other things to further improve the value of mining. Like deleting all of the drone regions. Increase the production capacity of players who mine in 0.0 by 1000% percent when compared to Empire by introducing super compressed rare ores. Make the reward worth the risk. Local needs to go. Macros are using it to make ISK with complete invulnerability. Get rid of it. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 10:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Bellum Eternus Other than that, it's a two way street. Attacks won't know the true strength of the defenders and vice versa. Fast hit and run attacks would be commonplace. Traps would be easier to enact, from both sides. What is to stop an alliance from running a mining op and having 20+ recons cloaked in the belt with them? With no local it's impossible for the attackers to know otherwise. And what they will get when the 20+ attacker recon decloak, melt 1-2 hulk in a volley, recloak and warp away? Unless they are incompetent the attacker have several serious advantages so long as the blets are static: 1) Know location of potential targets without need to deploy probes (so the window to detect cloakers is a few seconds). 2) Choice of time of the fight. They gather a pack and start to roam, if they haven't the people they do something different. The defender to would need to have the sentries constantly deployed as the attack can come at any time. Very realistic, it is a lot like RL where the sentry duty is one of the most boring in an army, but this is a game. 3) A competent FC would assign the target(s) before decloaking, so the delay in locking and firing is minimal, allowing for a efficient alpha strike. The defenders will have to react to the attack and probably will not even get the time to lock before the attackers recloak. Non static belts could mitigate that as there is a chance to detect the probes in time to prepare. You're correct with your points, and as I've said before- I think that belts need to be moved to exploration content just like in w-space. I think that it would be better if the mining content of this game be changed so that 80% of the time is spent finding the best ore (not just any ore, but the best stuff) and 20% of the time mining it. And make it worthwhile for this to be the case. Introduce new ores with ultra-high mineral compression so that it's easy to mine and haul. Scouts posted on gates mitigate a lot of the issues of hostiles sneaking in. 23/7 bubbles would be very common on both sides of gates around most sov systems. Players will have to tighten up their procedures for doing stuff no doubt. Right now everyone has it extremely easy and is super lazy. How many players out there really fear losing their ship while ratting/mining in 0.0 at the moment? I know when I rat in 0.0 I have absolutely zero worry that I'll lose my ship. Purely because of local. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 11:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Bellum Eternus Scouts posted on gates mitigate a lot of the issues of hostiles sneaking in. every smart ass whos supporting the removal of local should be tied down to their chairs, handcuffed, their head immobilized, and matchboxes squeezed inbetween their eyelids, then have their char mashed into some cloaked t1 frigate at a gate in 0.0 and then left in this position for like 15 hours straight. would be interesting to see what they had to say about the local channel afterwards. When my buddies and I are in w-space and there are easily accessible wormholes in the system from empire (meaning the wormholes connect to empire space and not another w-space system) we post an alt near the wormhole so we can monitor who comes through it. Sometimes we even drop a bubble if we're particularly concerned about someone coming in. How is this any different from doing the SAME EXACT THING in 0.0? We're operating in small gangs of 2-4 people. Surely a big bad alliance has enough people with a few secondary accounts to post an alt scout at a gate surrounded by massive bubbles? There are plenty of ways to address security concerns. It's people like yourself that are simply too lazy to want to work at it. I don't get killed in w-space. I end up doing the killing in w-space. Why? because I'm a better player than those that I kill. Not that people don't try and kill me, because they do. They just don't succeed. Admit it. You're personally worried that if local is removed then you'll never be able to compete with smart intelligent players that know what they're doing. You'll end up dead and podded just like the rest of the people who are too incompetent or lazy to protect themselves. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 11:22:00 - [14] So what about reversing Constellation and Local chat modes? Constellation is real-time and Local be changed to delayed mode? Then you'd know approximately how many hostile players are in the general area, but you wouldn't know exactly how many are in each particular system. I think that is a great compromise. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 13:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Lord Fitz If you wanted more realism, your ship would be detecting all ships and their types in system, but would give no names. Friendly ships in corp / alliance would all be shown as friendly (broadcasting IFF) and the rest as unknown. The main reason local hasn't been removed is because CCP would be basically looking at replacing it with a tool that 'is' local, but not a chat channel, at which point removing local becomes pointless anyway, so the least work is to just do nothing. Frankly I think that the scanner should only show the class of ship- battleship, battlecruiser, cruiser etc. and not give any other info unless it's probed or you get actual eyes on it and report it to your gang mates. This would make for a much more interesting combat environment and promote the use of scouts a lot more. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.07 15:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Novan Leon While the above suggestions are all well and good, this still doesn't address the social "issue". Without local, how can we help to keep EVE a very social experience? How can we allow and encourage spontaneous encounters between players while in space? I already answered this for you: use constellation chat. Or even a regional chat channel. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

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